10/4/2016

johns: First

Boy R. (GM): I had three survey respondents, is that enough to decide what houserules to go with?

johns: i think its worth waiting, ropekid for one said he'd need some time

Boy R. (GM): greetings Darvin

cool av

well, for now we've got 3:1 in favour of abilities being bought as arts, 3:1 for a minimum 5xp gain per season and 4 out of 4 for the paired characteristic restriction

is that enough to make characters on?

johns: Yeah

Boy R. (GM): hmm

johns: The minimum 5xp replaces Exposure & Practice XP?

Boy R. (GM): yeah

xp during creation should be bumped to compensate ofc

say 20/year for characters that aren't wealthy or poor?

assumed breakdown of the standard 15/year is 7/4/2/2, so this model would add 7

johns: OK, that's only 5 over what they normally get

Endrite: Oh noooo.

Boy R. (GM): xp for magi out of apprenticeship isn't affected ofc

man i forgot to include the tweak to the lab disaster table so that you can't save your life with high perception

will anyone be mad if i write that one in unilaterally?

johns: i would not be mad

Boy R. (GM): I meant low perception. but cool.

Endrite: AFK a minute.

johns: BR, are you making both a magus and a companion

Boy R. (GM): I think so

I mean you have to have a magus to really get into the game

Endrite: Hmm.

I think I'm going to need some help learning to play this game.

johns: roll the die to cast magic missile

Boy R. (GM): you probably will

it's infuriatingly obtuse sometimes

Prinny D. (GM): alright

johns: sup prinny

Prinny D. (GM): time to build a wizard

Endrite: Ok.

Are specialties just gone?

johns: there is the system I suggested where you can specialize in something in exchange for a malus to everything else

Boy R. (GM): for now, based on 2 votes for scrapping them to one against

how would you acquire specialties under that system?

Endrite: My vote counted.

johns: when I say "there is" I mean "that is an option if we like"

probably just chosen at the time you get the skill

Boy R. (GM): that's reasonable

at say, +2 to the specialty and -2 to everything else?

Prinny D. (GM): consumable enchantments are a minor breakthrough/hedge tradition right

johns: i was thinking +2/-1

you mean potions? idk are they?

Boy R. (GM): you can make any charged item as a consumable if you want

witch potions have special properties taht are worth incorporating as a breakthrough, idr what they are off the top of my head

Endrite: So we're at the red dot?

That's where the covenant is?

johns: i'd like to be in Rome

Endrite: Doesn't Rome have a high Dominion aura?

Boy R. (GM): all cities do, overall

but it also has lots of faerie/infernal influence leaving pockets of varied auras about

johns: Dominion auras also wane at night

Boy R. (GM): anyway, I prepped a map of Rome on the basis that most people seemed down with Italy in the abstract and johns liked the idea of rome, but that's as far as I've gone for covenant shit

Endrite: Logically, a Covenant would set up shop in a fairy dominated area to avoid any spellcasting penalties.

johns: Magic Auras can exist here too

Boy R. (GM): yep

johns: in the written setting there is a covenant located in the catacombs, Vardian's Tomb, that has a magic aura

Boy R. (GM): and really you want your covenant on a magic aura if at all possible

faerie auras are nice, but lead to more lab accidents

johns: Rome used to be the setting of the old Order of Mercury and strong magic, or even old magical sites can produce magic aura

Endrite: A tomb seems like a good choice but isn't it hard to live in a graveyard?

Boy R. (GM): Rome has extensive catacombs

and magic can make a lot of places livable

plus the dude was a necromancer, they're into that

Endrite: Ghosts pretty much all say this same things.

"I wish I was alive."

Boy R. (GM): trick them into thinking they are

johns: "avenge my death" "please don't enslave me to do your tedious chores"

Boy R. (GM): incidentally if we're going with rome i'd like to resurrect vardian's tomb and bring back Venator as an npc

I'd always meant to reveal he was only in hiding

Endrite: Classic ruse.

Literally.

Nothing more Classical than hiding in a Roman tomb.

Boy R. (GM): also our old librarian from Mont-Mercure, liesmith's character Paolo, retired here to work for the Church. he ended up becoming a fairy so chances are he's still around

johns: we could be in Vardian's tomb ourself

Boy R. (GM): potentially!

johns: I figure we need at least 1 Old NPC magus in the covenant

Endrite: I couldn't care less, myself.

johns: here's a bit of ~lore~ from the roman tribunal book: the roman tribunal is vis poor so the established powers try to ensure no one new moves in and sets up shop

Endrite: Hmm.

Isn't that us though?

johns: vardian's tomb was a bunch of guys who just set up a covenant without telling anyone, and by the time someone noticed they were well established enough to hold their own

Yeah

Boy R. (GM): well, is living in some secret chambers in a catacomb appealing?

or is there a better description of it in the tribunal sourcebook?

better yet can you share that? it wasn't in the 3rd ed torrent I found

welcome btw dys

Endrite: So the Power Level of the covenant is going to be Low then.

johns: the setting is barely described in the book so go hog wild

Boy R. (GM): I'm in favour of Low power, personally

Endrite: That makes sense.

johns: I think it should have a decent library and some enchanted items to reflect an old library but vis should be scarce to reflect the rest of Rome, who tends to trade for vis

Endrite: Since a young covenant in Rome would naturally be on the periphery to avoid discovery by the Roman tribunal.

Boy R. (GM): hmm

I've been thinking that the papacy vacating the city should lead to a drop in the dominion aura, and maybe a resurgence of old mystic sites, so there'd be a fair bit of attention on the place

Endrite: It will almost certainly be secret in some way OR be a schismatic covenant that broke away from a larger one but wasn't destroyed for some reason.

Boy R. (GM): but maybe we got established just before that happened

Endrite: That's interesting.

johns: Could be that Vardian or his buddies were skilled politickers capable of playing the big covenants off each other to stay afloat

Endrite: A very weak, young covenant that is nevertheless a staked player in the new Rome.

johns: They reach out to the players to bring in a lot of fresh new magi to stay solvent

Boy R. (GM): ooh maybe

johns: tribunal sourcebook https://www.sendspace.com/file/x0xgj0

Boy R. (GM): ty

Endrite: How convenient, it even has a wizard.

Boy R. (GM): is it as full of demons as I#ve heard?

johns: yes

Frederick II allegedly mentored by demons in this book

Boy R. (GM): he was

the demons of the augustan order

johns: ah, so the Pope that King Philip has kidnapped/murdered was a diabolist

not that Philip actually knew that though, he just got lucky

Endrite: No such thing.

Unless there is.

Prinny D. (GM): its always satanists

johns: this is 3rd edition, White Wolf so yes it's little heavy on the satan

Prinny D. (GM): my wizard concept: Vulgar Alchemist Baker Verditius

johns: i love it

what's Vulgar Alchemy?

Boy R. (GM): nice

Endrite: White Wolf is 100% retarded.

Prinny D. (GM): minor virtue that lets you discover new shape+material bonuses

Endrite: Well, 95%.

johns: ohh

Boy R. (GM): what's it from?

Prinny D. (GM): mysteries

its one of the "common mysteries"

johns: on the ars forum most people seem to think vulgar alchemy sucks balls

but if you can make it work

Prinny D. (GM): well it'd be hard to use shape+materials as a baker

without creating new ones

Endrite: Wait are we making characters first or the Covenant?

johns: fair enough

Boy R. (GM): a bit of both

johns: endrite part of building the covenant is choosing what's in the library so it helps to know what your character will like to have

Endrite: Hmm.

Boy R. (GM): I think you should be able to suggest new shape and material bonuses without necessarily going through a special research process

just put it to the troupe sort of thing

Endrite: Well, that's a bit of a problem because I don't really have a character concept.

Boy R. (GM): I see one conflict though: do we really want to live in a tomb or catacomb if concepts we have so far include a baker and a tailor?

johns: do you still want to go with a randomly generated char? we can help you through the char building process

Endrite: Yeah.

Bone bread and bone buttons.

johns: yeah having access to a building that regular mundane people would visit would be either a good setting or an extension of the covenant

Endrite: It seems like a catacomb would be a good excuse for the Dwindling Resources hook.

dys: Living in a tomb is cool and something to be aspired to by any wizard.

johns: there's an Inn or a rustic Villa on top of the covenant?

Endrite: Since you're running out of dead people related vis.

Boy R. (GM): quite likely

Endrite: It's Rome so I assume that every building can reach the catacombs if you have a sledgehammer.

Boy R. (GM): this particular tomb was raided by necromancer hunters who callously laid all its ghosts to rest

johns: q.q

dys: Ruthless

Boy R. (GM): yeah I like the idea of a shopfront with secret passages to catacombs with a nice aura for dark rituals

johns: a shop makes it easy and sensible for interactions with random mundane elements

Endrite: It should probably be a lot of shops.

johns: though I mean living in a haunted forest never stopped visitors from always dropping by

Endrite: Since there isn't really a reason for tailors and bakers to sell their wares out of the same building.

Boy R. (GM): word gets around when there wizards who love getting involved in people's business living in the area

Endrite: Like maybe a street or an alley.

Prinny D. (GM): yeah our covenant could be an alley

everyone gets their own tiny house

johns: the magical slum

Endrite: If it was an alley then you have a good excuse for living quarters and more exotic structures.

Boy R. (GM): income source: rent-seeking

johns: Yeah

Endrite: People also wouldn't notice too much when it catches on fire.

dys: A shopfront covenant sounds neat.

Boy R. (GM): it means as well there will be a lot of people living around who aren't dependents or employees of the covenant, so we have to establish how much they know

Endrite: Can you make the map VIS-ible?

Just put the tables on the GM layer or something.

Or just make the page bigger.

Boy R. (GM): I'll put them in handouts

johns: this is the map of rome from Tales of Power: http://imgur.com/M8wYaDA

Endrite: Yeah it looks like there are a lot of suitable alleys and former villas turned tenements, not that I have any idea of the psychic makeup of the city.

Argh.

Boy R. (GM): this map is actually from 1560 or something

but I liked it

Endrite: Hell what's the difference?

You could tell me this is from 1300 and I'd have no reason to disbelieve you.

Prinny D. (GM): okay, my magus is the baker's wife and my companion is the baker

johns: we just need a butcher & a candlestick maker

is the baker going to be gentle/normal/blatant gift?

Endrite: A magical butcher seems like a TERRIBLE person to buy meat from.

Boy R. (GM): it would be better to have magi and companions that can be played by different players in the same game

Prinny D. (GM): then maybe the baker is a grog

Boy R. (GM): that should let him do everything he needs to

johns: if we mix catacomb & surface level shops, would an Aegis of the Hearth cover the surface?

Boy R. (GM): It does need some kind of boundary

I think yes, but we probably need to Aegis the entire city block

Endrite: It could be a cul-de-sac or something.

Or a cult-de-sac.

johns: the crypt beneath the dead end

Endrite: It's Rome there's 2 thousand years of corpses buried under it.

I'm surprised they aren't constantly being pushed through the floor boards whenever the swamp floods.

Boy R. (GM): alright, I'm making notes on the wiki

what do we want to say for build points, 200?

Endrite: Hmm.

rolling 1d3

(

3

)

=

3

Or 300.

johns: what's our wizard tally

Myself, BR, Prinny, Darvin, Endrite, Ropekid for sure, Cumthinker, Dys when BW ends, Ropekid's buddy (maybe)

dys: I won't be there for the beginning, unless Nihnoz has a mental breakdown between now and next sunday.

Endrite: So 50/50.

johns: not entirely unlikely

even if you join late it's worth staking a claim on some build points

Boy R. (GM): you reckon we should each get discretion over a chunk of em?

johns: hard to say. some stuff worth buying benefits everyone

dys: I'll only stake a small claim then, in case it's a long while before I can play.

johns: I was hoping for a lot of arguing & haddling myself

haggling

but with 7 - 9 wizards I think 300 BP, the top end of "Low" power is worth doing

Boy R. (GM): yeah that's a massive covenant

the old npc wizards put out a desperate call for new blood, and got far more than they bargained for

here's a bunch of ars books btw, including Covenants

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzXcB3QoI9t0fkQzck1ZOWRrQXNLMGRnN3VhZVNQaTgtcENHa1VJcWw2dFBqRFVDNnBnWFk&usp=sharing

Endrite: Buying pawns of vis is a total amount, not per wizard right?

johns: my guy doesn't need any Arts books, so I'm really only needing the core abilities stuff like Penetration, Parma, Conc etc

Boy R. (GM): yeah

considering how many magi we have going, I was considering making an apprentice for my magus slot, if someone wants to take on the challenge of having a lab assistant

dys: What's the relevant splatbook for what you spend build points on

Or is it just the core book

Boy R. (GM): pretty much

the covenants splat gives you more boons and hooks and detailed lab rules

Endrite: Man, why is the art so awful?

Boy R. (GM): I'm going to guess budgetary constraints

though the european editions often have real professional art

Endrite: Wait which book are the two handouts from?

johns: Covenants

Endrite: 5th edition?

johns: yeah

Endrite: Ok.

Boy R. (GM): baseline aura is 3: do we have a compelling reason for higher or lower?

johns: using the Covenants finance rule, the covenant with 9 magi (1 npc, 8 players), 1 grog, 1 companion will cost 194 MP a year, a typical income source if 100 MP

Endrite: What's an MP?

Boy R. (GM): I think we should budget for more companions

johns: Mythic Pound

currency of choice for the wizard on the go

Endrite: Oh, Libra.

Boy R. (GM): known to non-wizards as, a pound

Endrite: Or Dirham.

Boy R. (GM): maybe in heathen climes

anyway for covenfolk the baseline assumption is 1 fighter grog 2 general workers per magus

I think we should be comparatively understaffed due to space constraints, and maybe have no fighter types

johns: Anyway so I think we should take the "Secondary Income" Boon for this covenant... with extra companions we'll still be running a bit red but that makes for stories further down the road

Endrite: Yeah that makes sense.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: I made a sheet for my wizard

Boy R. (GM): how do the covenant income rules interact with the running your own business rules?

Endrite: Make me one, will you?

I'm sure it's just as easy as applying a single modifier.

Ha ha ha ha.

Boy R. (GM): i'm getting out of my depth here

johns: not sure

i don't think they mesh well annoyingly

Endrite: What year is it?

1301?

Boy R. (GM): i know it must work on some level because nihnoz assured me that's what was going on when i let him handle the old cov's finances

johns: c&g assumes a business owner who makes any profit reinvests it right into the business

Boy R. (GM): I think we agreed on 1314

Endrite: Ok.

Then it seems like the Natural Disaster major hook is going to come into play.

Since everyone is going to die from the Plague.

johns: With Covenants rule, you pick an income source and label it "Typical" "Lesser" "Greater" etc. and you get an amount of currency each year, the money you make is presumed to already take into effect the costs of the business all wandwaved

eh we get about 40 years til then

Boy R. (GM): disappointingly, the plague doesn't show up for like 40 years

Endrite: 30 years.

It hits Rome in like 1347.

It's a pretty major disaster, however.

Boy R. (GM): according to art and academe the black death is, itself, a demon

Bonfilia ex Verditius: its ALWAYS satanists

Endrite: That seems stupid.

Boy R. (GM): but then again all natural disasters are caused by demons

johns: eh

i havent decided what shape it'll take

Bonfilia ex Verditius: so we need two sources of income

Endrite's Magus: You mean money income?

Bonfilia ex Verditius: yes

Darvin: Hello!

Boy R. (GM): greetings

Endrite's Magus: Well, here's the major hook.

The Covenant is in a City.

johns: a prudent observation

Heya Darvin

Boy R. (GM): darvin and dys, have character sheets you can edit to your taste

Endrite's Magus: The Hidden Ways minor boon also makes sense, but the Catacombs might be a little too crowded with all sorts of weirdos to count.

Boy R. (GM): i'm going through the site hooks and boons, and I think we qualify for Poorly Defensible

dys: Brujulko is a good na,e

thank you as always roll20

johns: I am slapping the Unknown hook up there and there's nothing you can do about it

Endrite's Magus: Definitely.

Boy R. (GM): and probably an Unhealthy environment

Darvin: I was going to use the tool you linked in the forum to create the character sheet, is there a better way?

dys: The covenant wasnt well-liked by the others in the area, right? Would Rival apply as a hook.

Boy R. (GM): the character sheet on roll20 is handy tool for storing a token and letting you chat with your character's name

you want to use it to leave a link to your REAL character sheet which is stored offsite somewhere

Darvin: Gotcha

I'll be silent for a few minutes while I catch up with chat, but I've read through all the boons and hooks for covenants

johns: i am annoyed at how this chapter is sorted

alphabetical, but separated into different t ypes

Bonfilia ex Verditius: I just put my character sheet on my character here in roll20

Endrite's Magus: This is how I feel about all the books.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: as in i dont link anywhere

Endrite's Magus: I tried having a link to my character sheet on my pendragon knight but it proved to be a real hassle.

Boy R. (GM): you can do that too, but if you use metacreator it's awkward to format hte text output it gives you for roll20

johns: how about Criminals Boon? the catacombs could be a hiding spot for them and making them easy recruits, or even our above ground spot depending how slummy it is

Endrite's Magus: I'm not SURE that the Poorly Defensible hook is appropriate.

Since Rome itself is fairly well defneded.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: Bonfilia would not want to run a business alongside a bunch of criminals

Boy R. (GM): we're unlikely to be besieged

i think the city surroundings hook covers it

Bonfilia ex Verditius: maybe Secondary Income resource boon?

johns: put that up there

Boy R. (GM): i want to make this tailor guy as well, we could qualify for another secondary income?

and have renting out the upper levels be our primary

johns: yeah I like that

Boy R. (GM): I like dwindling resource on one of our vis sources as well (perhaps our only?)

johns: Alright

Bonfilia ex Verditius: we could have the vis resource be in the catacombs

Endrite's Magus: What's with the Superiors?

Bonfilia ex Verditius: either perdo or corpus vis

johns: My impression from the Roman sourcebook is most covenants get their vis sources by trading mundane resources, enchantments, or services with vis healthy covenants in other tribunals like africa, greece etc

Vardian is an old NPC wizard who will occasionally order the players to do stuff when the GM needs an easy story hook

Bonfilia ex Verditius: so which stats are bound together

johns: also as the eldest Magus of the covenant he'd be the reason the covenant is still standing and wasn't taken over by the big powers of Roman Tribunal... does that seem ok?

Boy R. (GM): I think you mean Venator, presumably there is a Vardian buried here

Endrite's Magus: How may time does Urban sow up in this book?

johns: oh

hehe oopsy

Endrite's Magus: Oh that makes more sense.

Boy R. (GM): strength and stamina, dex and quickness, int and per, presence and com

johns: we're taking the Secondary Income boon twice, so taking up two boon slots?

Endrite's Magus: It seems like they'd have to be EXCEPTIONAL shops yo be worth the secondary income.

Boy R. (GM): yeah probably

Endrite's Magus: Probably on the line of a factory.

johns: this hook reminds me of rogue trader "Vast and Labyrinthine: The covenant is extremely large and has been constructed in a rambling, disorganized way. No living person has seen every room in the structure. Large sections of the covenant are used infrequently, perhaps once every few years. Whole subcultures have developed among the covenant’s staff. "

Bonfilia ex Verditius: that is literally a rogue trader ship

johns: the income chapter of covenants gives examples of different types of income sources by scale

Endrite's Magus: That isn't totally appropriate because I think the Catacombs are more like a Fairy Wood or something in that it's a location shared by a lot of parties.

Boy R. (GM): in fact the rents and the trade taken all together probably equal one typical income source

johns: like "Lesser: A large town tavern, Typical: A luxurious Parisian brotherl"

there could be wizard enchantments already in place to enhance the businesses

Endrite's Magus: It ALSO seems like the covenant's staff is significantly smaller than average.

Boy R. (GM): i remember finding it frustrating in the past how hard it is to turn providing enchantments and rituals into an income sources and cost it appropriately

I think it should be but I;m trying to find the hook that affects it

johns: most of the Hooks in this chapter are a lot cooler than the Boons

Endrite's Magus: Like a ritual to make the whole alley smell like baking bread or something.

Darvin: Yeah, I felt the same way

johns: a mentem spell that reduces people's reluctance to spend money

Endrite's Magus: Examples

Lesser: A gang of highway bandits.

Typical: An organized crime network

in a large city.

Greater: The pirate fleet of the Rhine

Legendary: Robin Hood, with

Endrite's Magus: covenant of Waddenzee.

demonic assistance.

Man, demons are everywhere.

johns: (may cause warping in prolonged usage)

Boy R. (GM): that's just basic theology

johns: "Difficult Access: The covenant’s geographical surroundings make it difficult to assault"

no one is sending pikemen and cavalry into the crypts

Boy R. (GM): well, I guess

Endrite's Magus: That's true BUT it seems like the ground level is just as important to the covenant.

Boy R. (GM): but they can send pikemen to knock on our doors and burn us out of our homes

johns: good point

Boy R. (GM): how about informants for a minor boon? seems likely for the only well established cov in the city

Darvin: Could the secondary income be allowing he bandits safe passage through the city? And the magic is something that makes it difficult for people to track people down?

johns: why is Regio both a Boon and a Hook. argh

Boy R. (GM): because it can be an asset or a liability

Endrite's Magus: I assume that in Rome, the bandits all work as guards.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: is dexterity used in crafting stuff

johns: im cool with Bandit tolling if the rest don't mind sullying their hands with criminals

Darvin: Yeah, Regio is either helpful for keeping people out, or annoying to take people around

Endrite's Magus: Well, it seems liked it run counter to the more affable shopkeeping.

johns: agreed on Informants, I expect we'll have lots of dallying with local elements so that will be necessary

Endrite's Magus: So just how humble should the street-level of the Covenant be?

Boy R. (GM): re. dex and craft I think so but I'm not sure. the mechanics of crafting are in city and guild if you want to get deep into it, but you don't need any characteristic to benefit fro ma craft ability with verditius magic

Bonfilia ex Verditius: i might edit the stats later

johns: We've got a Baker which can fit in anywhere, and a Tailor-- is the Tailor an upscale kind, regular?

Boy R. (GM): well he makes wondrous items, and a maker of magic breads is likely to be pretty upscale

though we can always keep a deliberately low profile

johns: ok, so not a slum

Endrite's Magus: So in terms of covenfolk how many should there be?

Boy R. (GM): i'd say solidly middle class

Endrite's Magus: It seems like less than 30 people at this point.

Boy R. (GM): I think the 2 servants/labourers to a magus is appropriate, but we shouldn't have any soldiers on hand

Darvin: So around 15-20?

Boy R. (GM): probably, though we might have as many as 9 magi

call it 20

i just wish i could find a hook for being understaffed

johns: i'd like to add an Inn/Tavern as one of our shops as a Hangout Minor Hook

Bonfilia ex Verditius: so whos the wizard inkeeper

johns: regular innkeeper

Boy R. (GM): that's cool

Darvin: Maybe we could use "incompetent Covenfolk" as a sub for understaffed

johns: haha

Boy R. (GM): that works

i still want something that specifically says, you don't have the shield grog that is assumed in the default cov setup

there's no reason to be short of ready labourers, except that we're wizards and horrible to be around

well anyway, it looks like we have a lot of boons to work with

johns: "Pilgrimage Site: Pious people travel from across the kingdom to visit a holy shrine near the covenant." would be an appropriate Boon for Rome

Endrite's Magus: That does sound good.

Boy R. (GM): does it inconvenience us?

Endrite's Magus: But I feel like we're neglecting the Catacombs.

The specific part of the catacombs we're set up in should provide a boon of some kind.

johns: yeah we could boost some of the magical resources in our catacaombs

Darvin: To go with the pilgrimage site, maybe an the "Edifices" boon of something that inspires awe

Boy R. (GM): we could have an extremely high magic aura that only affects an area of the underground

what sort of edifice?

times like this I wish I knew Rome better

Endrite's Magus: I think an Edifice would be more appropriate to a villa or something.

johns: mm

let's grab an ~Exceptional Book~

Endrite's Magus: Autocephalous might be appropriate since there are possibly a lot of places in Rome that just aren't run by anyone.

But yeah some kind of ghoulishly beneficial regio might exist in the catacombs.

Boy R. (GM): i'm down for an exceptional book

we can argue about it what it should be on later

Endrite's Magus: Well, probably some old Mercurian text since we're on a catacomb.

johns: Can I take out Unhealthy Environment? We already have that sort of factored into the City (which gives a -1 to aging rolls anyway)

Endrite's Magus: I think the Catacomb might be even worse.

Darvin: makes sense to me

Endrite's Magus: But more correctable, since we could just magic out all the rats.

johns: hey that's what my magus does best

Endrite's Magus: Well, it is what it is.

There should definitely be some kind of boon related to local city politics.

Darvin: Doesn't the "Vast and Labyrinthine" boon apply to catacombs

Endrite's Magus: Not that I have any idea how city politics works.

johns: We could start out with good relations to one of the noble families

Endrite's Magus: Welllllllllllll, kind of.

The covenant clearly doesn't control the entire catacombs.

So it's possible that we could have a small and well delineated set of rooms and tunnels.

johns: I was going to run the setting by ropekid to get his approval on historical accuracy. But as I see it, it's almost like a mafia setup. There's families competing for power, they have legitimate sides that have family members in the Senate/clergy, have feudal holdings outside the city, own various rights etc. but also maintain street gangs and get involved in nasty stuff

The Papal Curia is handled by the Vicar General in the Pope's stead. I believe he appoints Senators, I'm not sure to what extent any senators are democratically elected still

Boy R. (GM): you've had more prepped than you let on

Endrite's Magus: Well, the Papacy just left, so there's a big void there.

Darvin: yeah

Endrite's Magus: My guess is that Senatorial seats are entirely prestige positions.

Boy R. (GM): We probably need to have the support of one major family or another

johns: Yes there's the Senate, various committees, but also feudal style rights like the right to toll a certain gate, or tax merchants in a certain era that are being fought over

Endrite's Magus: Right.

Boy R. (GM): it won't escape their notice that we're running a bunch of businesses as a syndicate or whatever

Endrite's Magus: That's why I'm feeling Autocephalous.

johns: I agree

Darvin: because the Papacy left Rome, it would make sense that the local government and mafia would try to start taking over things the church more tightly controlled

johns: Also at the same time the Pope has left there are more and more pilgrims coming into the city (since the Pope declared Jubilee in 1300)

it's not as bustling a metropolis as Venice but its still active

as for Autocephalous: I think that would mean that no one person can claim the land we're sitting and thus have the legal right to kick us out or order us around. but nobles we piss off could still attack us with their various forces or find indirect ways to mess with us if they like?

Endrite's Magus: Yes.

It MIGHT be that we take the Mundane Politics hook instead.

But we have almost 3 times as many hooks as boons.

johns: half the hooks are designed for magi living in a castle full of armed goons!!!!

i mean boons

but you get what I mean

Endrite's Magus: Armed boons.

Boy R. (GM): let's buy 6 points of fortifications

just for the hell of it

johns: Motte & Bailey castle with curtain walls in the heart of rome

Endrite's Magus: Wouldn't armed baboons be Magical Soldiers?

We might want to nix Dwindling Vis.

Even though that isn't Romantially appropriate.

Since I'm not seeing where the value of the catacombs is coming into play.

Boy R. (GM): how about a Tame Nobleman?

it's a boon, but it gives us political hooks

and sorts out some income

Endrite's Magus: Not necessary with Autocephalus.

johns: id be OK with removing dwindling resources, we'll just start out poor instead of having a resource disappear in 10 years

Boy R. (GM): yeah that's fine

johns: i also personally like having us either tame or oppose a noble in play rather than starting out that way

Endrite's Magus: Same.

I think you are erasing in the worst possible way here.

Since you're just putting a white scribble over the text which is already over a white box when you could just delete the text.

johns: i was having trouble selecting the text without selecting the text besides it

Boy R. (GM): idk if we qualify for hangout if it's part of the covenant

johns: alright

Boy R. (GM): i guess the point is it's a meeting point with the outside world though

johns: tbh im not fussing the need to balance the numbers out too much

I think it was a good way to start out thinking the design and layout and theme

Bonfilia ex Verditius: which book is craft magic in

Boy R. (GM): i absolutely insist that our hooks match our boons, even if half of them end up irrelevant

covenants actually

johns: Covenants p48

let's throw in one more source of secondary income so we have: The Inn, The Bakery, The Tailor

Endrite's Magus: It'd have to be a really serious bakery and tailoring operation, I think.

Darvin: What do you think of Tithing Miracles on pg22?

Boy R. (GM): yeah, I would think that the traders on the ground floor count as a single income source all told

johns: Each business also rents out part of its building

hmm ok

Bonfilia ex Verditius: the Verditius Hubris mechanic will ensure that Bonfilia's bakery becomes world renowned

johns: i didn't really understand what the Tithing Miracle was

Endrite's Magus: I mean I assume that every mage in the covenant is going to have a storefront if they aren't a total freak.

Darvin: basically it means that everything goes well for people who tithe

johns: ahh

We could match that also with Pilgrimage site, say this area is blessed by some saint of mercantalism

Endrite's Magus: It's like Jesus multiplying the loaves and fishes but with taxes.

Boy R. (GM): it seems reasonable in a street of magical businesses

Endrite's Magus: But then where are the Satanists supposed to go?

Boy R. (GM): It's blessed by Saint Mercury, who was controversially canonised by Pope Tiberius the 1st thanks to the intervention of the magi of Mont-Mercure

johns: There is a shrine to Saint Nicholas here

Endrite's Magus: From looking at the book we need at LEAST 10% Satan.

johns: people who honor him find an extra coin in their stockings every December 25th to tithe with

oh lol

I like BR's suggestion better

Bonfilia ex Verditius: damn one whole coin

Endrite's Magus: Both seem fine to me.

johns: if we did that, so while there is a shrine & the miracle it's actually Faerie instead of Divine

Boy R. (GM): yeah, I prefer the idea of a coincidental magic effect that's hailed as a miracle

Endrite's Magus: Why would there be fairy magic that helps you give a tithe to the Dominion?

Boy R. (GM): or faerie, we

johns: the faeries don't care where the money goes as long as people keep coming to its shrine

Endrite's Magus: Fairies seem to be more about taking to me.

johns: maybe it's actually Satan giving the coins, to encourage people to keep paying homage to a fake Faerie saint

Endrite's Magus: This is getting complicated.

Boy R. (GM): the people who take the coins are technically accepting a gift from a fairy, which gives it the power to fuck with you

Darvin: ha

that would be great

although I get the feeling that would come back to us with some serious consequences at some point

johns: yesssss

i mean it makes sense at the same time all these mundane powers are squabbling for power the fae/divine/infernal powers are in a similar struggle

Endrite's Magus: If there's any trouble I'd prefer to be the one causing it.

I guess.

johns: that balances & explains why our neighborhood is wealthy

Boy R. (GM): nice

Endrite's Magus: There isn't any reason for there to be a catacomb at this point.

johns: hmm

Endrite's Magus: Unless we want to add one more boon and hook for it.

johns: i think some ghosts should have survived the last purge and are still sticking around

Boy R. (GM): well partly it gives us a concealed area to run hermetic labs out of

idk if that's worth a boon

Endrite's Magus: I think that's just assumed in a Covenant.

Darvin: Miracle Tithe is a major boon btw, for balancing reasons

Endrite's Magus: Maybe ghosts could be a Useful Curse?

Because the ghosts like wizards for some reason.

johns: Useful Curse or Mystical Allies

Endrite's Magus: Which page are Mystical Allies on?

johns: 23

Mystical Allies: A large mystical creature is the friend and occasional benefactor of the covenant. Alternatively, a group of smaller animals assists the covenant.

Endrite's Magus: Hmm.

Mystical Allies would suggest a more necromantic bent while Useful Curse would be normal.

Boy R. (GM): ancient roman ghosts that give advice would be cool

perhaps even prophecies

I'm not feeling pilgrimage site tbh. the city is a pilgrimage site but does it involve the covenant?

Endrite's Magus: I mean if they're Mystical Allies I'd assume that one or more of the magi would be involved in necromancy.

Well, we're saying that there's a magical site nearby that slightly increases wealth with the Miracle Tithe and that it's the source of the mystical conflict that plagues the covenant.

Or that the covenant profits from.

Darvin: i could get into some necromancy

Boy R. (GM): I'm sure johns can give you some pointers

Bonfilia ex Verditius: every wizard has some knowledge of necromancy

since its just mentem spells

Endrite's Magus: But Roman Ghosts who love spookin' your foes suggests a lot more necromancy.

Boy R. (GM): our npc overseer is a necromancer

Endrite's Magus: Ok, Mystical Allies it is.

johns: heh

Endrite's Magus: But are they our allies or his?

johns: I mean whatever I just want to make the catacomb itself have some defining features

Boy R. (GM): time dilation anyone?

Endrite's Magus: PU access point.

So there's a grate next to a sloped hill that you can push against.

johns: if we have more Boons than Hooks i can just balance it out with a few more "unknowns"

Endrite's Magus: We could always make the catacombs less secure, so people are always stumbling in.

Darvin: (mystical ally is also a major boon, so we will need to do some balancing

johns: a ghost keeps leaving the door open

ahh lol

Boy R. (GM): that seems easy to fix though

how did we get here, we were coming down with hooks a second ago

johns: okay I'm just going to say it's Useful Curse because the ghosts can be annoying if they want to be

they are Latin speaking & interesting but also make a mess of pots and pans

OH

Endrite's Magus: What kind of ghosts are they?

johns: The Useful Curse can be: Covenfolk tend to get Second Sight and the ability to see or hear the ghosts

Which spooks them out, but it's handy to the Magi who don't have Second Sight themselves

Endrite's Magus: That's a good one.

It also explains why so few covenfolk are here.

Boy R. (GM): neat

Endrite's Magus: Useful Curse is a Minor Boon.

johns: fff

Endrite's Magus: Since it's good for us but bad for the normies.

LOOKS LIKE THE GHOSTS HAVE ALREADY MADE A MESS OF SOME POTS AND PANS

johns: I'll add the "Spies" hook now

Boy R. (GM): that's good though, better than a major mystical ally

seems appropriate

Endrite's Magus: Fairys, devils, and ghosts would make things a little crowded.

Boy R. (GM): is unknown major or minor

Endrite's Magus: Unknown always counts as Major.

Darvin: Superior is a major, so it city, and if Unknown is as well we are at 11 hooker points

i fail at English: City, Unknown, and Superiors all count as major hooks

johns: the ghosts should count as "Resident Nuisance" hook

unknown is major? oh ok

Endrite's Magus: Yeah.

Always.

Boy R. (GM): well we can drop the incompetent grogs I guess

all I ever wanted was to reflect that they're not warlike

Endrite's Magus: That's fine.

It balances it out.

Boy R. (GM): ok cool, we're 10 for 10

johns: yay

Boy R. (GM): let's talk vis sources, which is where I think the catacombs start proving their worth

oh, maybe we have to be guided to fragments of vis by covenfolk who hear the ghosts

if you cast a spell on the ghost it destroys the whole ritual and the vis never manifests

johns: neat

Boy R. (GM): though it's only ever a bit of bone or debris found in the tunnels

Endrite's Magus: It might also be that the stones themselves contain vis.

johns: Tracking down vis sources is a pretty standard starting story for covenants so we can have a couple seeded in distant places

Endrite's Magus: Well, don't we need to know what kinds of vis we want first?

Boy R. (GM): Corpus is a good bet

really all vis is valuable, and you make the best use you can of it

but right, maybe we can leave the build points for now, the more important thing was to build a picture of the covenant

johns: Vim vis is essential, as it's use for opening enchanted items and the Aegis of the hearth

Boy R. (GM): it's also the cheapest, commonest sort

in the worst case you can distill it from the aura

Endrite's Magus: The idea of a spider web that catches Vim is from the book and could be catacomby.

Get that 'comby vis.

Boy R. (GM): yeah

this portion of the catacombs themselves could be built to sacred geometries that funnel vim to a point where it can be picked up

Endrite's Magus: That's a good one.

Boy R. (GM): I hadn't copied those hooks but I guess you're keeping notes

johns: yeah I got em

do wondrous items need vis to make?

Boy R. (GM): I don't believe so

Endrite's Magus: I think the spider metaphor could have some legs, since the covenant is sitting in the middle of a very raucous conflict.

But it's Autocephaly places it above a lot of it.

Boy R. (GM): nice

johns: prinny's the only guy whose got a specific concept atm and I think herbam and vim are the most important to him

Boy R. (GM): he's going to have the most needs for vis

should we be narrowing down character concepts before getting into this?

I'm thinking I might make a Jerbiton who maintains a lot of false identities

johns: I think that'd be a good idea but I don't want to pressure folks who are still thinking stuff up

Endrite's Magus: Lemme roll a House then.

Boy R. (GM): I think as well I'll probably focus on corpus and animal

Endrite's Magus:

rolling 1d12

(

4

)

=

4

Hmm, Ex Miscellanea.

johns: that really narrows down your options lol

Endrite's Magus: Yeah I'm gonna reroll.

Fuck the police.

rolling 1d12

(

2

)

=

2

Ok that's a bit better.

Darvin: Because of the political stuff going on, I was thinking of going with House Bonisagus and aiming for a spider motif (based on the comment about catecombs)

Boy R. (GM): neat

johns: That's a good idea

Boy R. (GM): political bonisagi are ftw

johns: Trianoma right?

Endrite's Magus: Oh if you're going to do that I'll reroll.

rolling 1d12

(

3

)

=

3

Darvin: Yeah, Trianoma

johns: Endrite is that Criamon? assuming you're going in the order they show up in RAW

Endrite's Magus: Yes.

johns: badass

Endrite's Magus: Makes sense.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: Criamon are a bit weird

Boy R. (GM): their entry in houses of hermes really fills them out

Endrite's Magus: The Covenant lies on the boundaries of life and death, heaven and hell, wealth and poverty.

It's very suitable for the study of Twilight.

johns: criamon players are encouraged to be as weird and freaky as possible

Boy R. (GM): ftr I'm not not going to take the persona ability but i kind of do want to mess around with the rules for maintaining a false identity from the tytalus section

johns: i also encourage folks to use the "Agents" section from Ex Misc

Boy R. (GM): despite that he's a non-standard jerbiton who values comfort but not wealth and considers himself a man of the people

johns: a populist eh

Endrite's Magus: I'm not sure what effect Enigmatic Wisdom does.

I mean has.

johns: It gives a mechanical bonus to comprehending twilight, which lets you get good stuff whenever you go into it

Endrite's Magus: Right.

Boy R. (GM): it means you're more likely to get positive effects from twilight episodes

like extra experience

Endrite's Magus: But mechanically how does it work?

Boy R. (GM): shit that's another area where we need to redo the formulas because of the damn arts scale

Endrite's Magus: Oh I see it.

johns: lol

Darvin: do we generally know what our upper age limit should be?

johns: i got really mixed answers on the survey about that

Boy R. (GM): I thought people mostly agreed we should be a few years out of apprenticeship

or rather, no more than a few

johns: I was planning to do Apprenticeship -> University but no additional magic XP after apprenticeship

Endrite's Magus: I'm still a little confused with how Twilight works.

Boy R. (GM): you check for twilight when you botch on a spell, basically

perhaps occasionally from messing up in the lab

Endrite's Magus: What is the Twilight Result?

The length of time spent in Twilight?

johns: Here's my suggestion.. People can be up to 4 years post apprenticeship and get a flat +15 xp/year, the drawback being that you'd probably get more xp in a similar period if you were working from a full-statted covenant library... how's that sound?

there's two stages to twilight basically

Boy R. (GM): more likely the after-effects

johns: First is avoidance, if you avoid, nothing happens to you

Second is comprehension, comprehension modifies the chart of how long you stay in Twilight

Boy R. (GM): depending on whether you comprehend or not, you have positive or negative effects from your experience, which can result in a new virtue or flaw or something like that

Bonfilia ex Verditius: Bonfilia has Chthonic Magic but she's not a satanist

johns: Suuuuure.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: she comes from a strong tradition of sinister breadmakers

hailing from deepest France

johns: lol

Endrite's Magus: Hmm.

Boy R. (GM): are you deliberately halving the standard benefits for magi out of apprenticeship? they're likely to be less than what you'd get in play even at the default level

johns: wait I thought 15 a year was standard

is it normally 30? then durr im stupid

Boy R. (GM): magi get 30 to play with, but that includes spells and lab projects

Endrite's Magus: Reading over the Criamon description it's obvious what my goal is.

Boy R. (GM): tbh I recommend making a baby magus just for simplicity

johns: i just want everyone to be on the same level starting out

Bonfilia ex Verditius: for Criamon you really should read their entry in the mystery cults book instead of the core

Endrite's Magus: The reorganization of the streets of Rome to the proper mystical geometry.

johns: niiice!

Boy R. (GM): sweet

Bonfilia ex Verditius: they have a lot of things to them, including picking a specific tradition within the house

johns: the Mysteries has (pretty pointless) mysteries of Hermetic Geometry and Hermetic Architecture if you like

Boy R. (GM): I always thought they were cool

Endrite's Magus: Link.

johns: also agreed with prinny, check out the mysteries book

Boy R. (GM): https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzXcB3QoI9t0fkQzck1ZOWRrQXNLMGRnN3VhZVNQaTgtcENHa1VJcWw2dFBqRFVDNnBnWFk&usp=sharing

johns: Hermetic Architecture can do really cool stuff!! (once you have 200 level Vim lab totals)

Boy R. (GM): note, Houses of Hermes: Mystery Cults and The Mysteries are separate but both of interest to this concept

Endrite's Magus: Why are there two copies of The Mysteries?

Boy R. (GM): one is about the four houses of the order that are mystery cults, the other is about miscellaneous mystery cults that exist in secret in the order and practice obscure magics like divination and so on

it's basically an awkward attempt to staple more historically accurate magical practices onto the framework of ars magica

Endrite's Magus: No, I mean there's one that has the same cover as the other but with a white border around it.

Boy R. (GM): lol

google drive does that sometimes when i open a file

Endrite's Magus: Oh.

Boy R. (GM): is anyone else making a companion or grog?

johns: I'll make a grog but probably no companion

Darvin: not at the beginning

Boy R. (GM): maybe I should make something more human and accessible

Endrite's Magus: I think I'll make one.

Boy R. (GM): otherwise what's the point

johns: im not seeing a problem with your original plan

Bonfilia ex Verditius: should I go whole hog on the evil baker and go for Demonic Blood as well or should I go with Gentle Gift for my second major virtue?

Endrite's Magus: So for the Artes Liberales you HAVE to pick a specialization right?

Boy R. (GM): no

we're going with optional specializations

Endrite's Magus: Ok.

johns: can you remind me what demonic blood does? iirc it's a package of a lot of effects

Boy R. (GM): though I think at +2-1 they're still a no-brainer

Endrite's Magus: What if I want two?

Boy R. (GM): you don't get two

Endrite's Magus: Hmm.

HMMM...

johns: oh I was thinking of Devil Child

Bonfilia ex Verditius: basically your dad is a demon and you are half-demon and you have 5 might and get an infernal power at lvl 30

johns: ah

Boy R. (GM): that might won't stack wit hthe parma

or at least, I think it shouldn't

Bonfilia ex Verditius: the might is just for activating the infernal power

since it works like most magic powers

Boy R. (GM): well that's alright then

seems like a downgraded mythic blood tbh

Bonfilia ex Verditius: it has a bunch of other things tied to it as well

the virtue literally covers half a page

johns: are you doing devil child for your magus or your companion

Bonfilia ex Verditius: magus

johns: id be cool with it if you can make it balance, since it's written for a mythic companion with extra virtue slots

Bonfilia ex Verditius: ill think about it

Boy R. (GM): oh is it one of the "this is the sort of mythic companion you are" virtues

Bonfilia ex Verditius: its the infernal version of mythic blood

johns: Demonic Blood is separate from Demon Child and a lot simpler

oh demonic blooded people age 2x as fast. that's rough

when it says "Immune to Warping" I assume that means you still get warp points but don't accumulate flaws like a mundane would

Bonfilia ex Verditius: I dont know

Boy R. (GM): I have to wonder how a character who's tainted with infernal power gets trained as a magus

johns: magic can't sense it

Bonfilia ex Verditius: only dominion/infernal can sense it

johns: so personally I'm okay with it as long as the character isn't actively trying to subvert the rest of the covenant. I think it's something the whole troupe should get to vote on though cause it's a dicey issue

Bonfilia ex Verditius: I probably wont pick it due to the new aging rules

the double age is just too much of a penalty now

Endrite's Magus: Well, it's up to you, in that case.

I definitely need to make a mundane character because it looks like my wizard is going to be disappearing into the Warp periodically.

Boy R. (GM): it's easy to twilight yourself deliberately if that's what you want to do, but it doesn't come up naturally all that much

my last character had insane warping from walking around under constant magic effects, but managed never to have a twilight episode

Bonfilia ex Verditius: there are a couple ways to abuse warping points as well

for wicked sick rewards

johns: augustans have a cool feature: once you hit level 10 warp, you are fated to die no matter what

Boy R. (GM): that... is... cool?

Darvin: interesting atleast

Boy R. (GM): as punishment for excessive wizardry, you are doomed to suffer the fate of all men

Endrite's Magus: The special Criamon skill reduces your Twilight result so it looks like you can avoid the final twilight for a long time.

johns: you always run a risk of your twilight roll exploding

which iirc happened to one of Mont-Mercure's enemies at a climactic moment

Boy R. (GM): no, he just had a high warping score and no enigmatic wisdom

Endrite's Magus: Hmm, looks like Criamon are highly moral pacifists.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: not all of them

Boy R. (GM): by and large though yeah

Bonfilia ex Verditius: there is a tradition that serves as house enforcers and do whatever more or less

Darvin: Is there any particular Bonisagus Trianoma books I should read outside of the core?

Bonfilia ex Verditius: houses of hermes: true lineages

Darvin: thanks

Bonfilia ex Verditius: I'm taking Corrupted Abilities (All Craft Abilities)

Boy R. (GM): well, it's getting late here. I'm going to post up some rough draft characters in the thread tomorrow

Bonfilia ex Verditius: giving me +3 to evil deeds, and -3 to neutral/good deeds

johns: hmm.

Endrite's Magus: Uh...

johns: sinful bread

Bonfilia ex Verditius: it synergizes well with chthonic magic

Boy R. (GM): sounds awkward, having to constantly be doing evil in all your work

also like a huge liability to the covenant

Endrite's Magus: I'm going to be honest, the House Criamon mystery cult is much less interesting than the geometer cult.

johns: are you going to be doing the thing with cthonic magic where you deliberately sin whenever you do work for lab bonuses

Darvin: sinister bakery

Bonfilia ex Verditius: yes

corrupted abilities IS a flaw, so

johns: i am getting terrible flashbacks here

Bonfilia ex Verditius: this is going to be great

Endrite's Magus: Ok, the House Criamon prima being a loli witch is a little much.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: lol, yeah

Boy R. (GM): they are the most anime house

anyway, that was a hundred years ago

Endrite's Magus: Oh so now she looks 14 but is actually 200,

Great.

johns: lol

Bonfilia ex Verditius: it is amazing

johns: anyway i'm okay with cthonic sinful baker but would declare in advance you can't learn any malefica or goetic arts etc.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: yeah im not planning to

Endrite's Magus: I still don't really know how to make a cahracter.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: follow the section called Detailed Character Creation

it details every step

johns: do you have Metacreator?

Endrite's Magus: Right but I don't know what abilities are useful.

Bi,

No.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: eh, magic theory is good

penetration is good

johns: Magic Theory effects all Lab Totals, which includes inventing spells, which is important

Bonfilia ex Verditius: pick what you believe sounds useful, it will probably be useful

Endrite's Magus: Also what characteristics are useful beyond Intelligence.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: except legerdemain

Endrite's Magus: Why would that be useful?

johns: Stamina affects your Casting total. Quickness affects Initiative in combat & ability to fast cast magic. Perception can affect aiming rolls on indirect magic

Darvin: I installed the 4 MetaCreator apps but when I run the updater (mcupdown) and try to download the updates, it cause "unable to create the updater filer C:\...\MetaCreator5.3.8upd.exe" and then won't update anything.

johns: maybe there's something weird with the way I zipped it, try the demo http://www.alteregosoftware.com/demos.php

Endrite's Magus: The Mystery Cults book feels a LOT more White Wolf than the Mysteries book.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: intelligence and stamina are the most important two

the rest depend on character

Endrite's Magus: How do the paired stats work?

I mean characteristics.

Darvin: I downloaded the demo just fine, is there anything else I need to do or just use the demo program to create the character?

johns: I dunno if it's the same demo program we used 2 years ago but it should hopefully be bundled with the relevant package to make an Ars char

Darvin: Kewl

Boy R. (GM): unless you buy the full version you won't be able to save your work

also uh... you'll need to recalculate your ability scores after making a character with metacreator, because we're changing the rules. sorry.

johns: lol

Darvin: Fair enough

Endrite's Magus: This is living.

Darvin: I might just do it in excel if that doesn't sound incredibly stupid...

Boy R. (GM): but that's just changing a value based on however many xp you've spent

no i always found it easier just to keep an editable text file

johns: i use excel, its simpler to track changes over time that way too

Darvin: Would you mind sending me a copy of the excel file you are using? (I know it's probably not templated)

johns: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/160mA3zirp2VM_dkk7byTF7lH4B8z0w993290TrmQqsA/edit?usp=sharing

(To Endrite): you probably found out but the way the paired stats work is that you can't have one stat of a pair be negative if the other is positive (they can always be 0)

(From Endrite's Magus): I didn't.

(From Endrite's Magus): Where is the list of paired characteristics?

Endrite's Magus: So should I start as a Geometer or is it one of those things I have to be inducted into during play?

Bonfilia ex Verditius: hey johns can I make my story flaw Evil Destiny?

Endrite's Magus: Story Flaw: Prinny

johns: You can start with a Mystery cult yeah

I think Plagued by Supernatural Menace would be a better choice as it is not a flaw that suggests you are going to screw over all the players

Bonfilia ex Verditius: Evil Destiny doesn't mean that the character is evil

it means that the character has a secret infernal flaw that the storyguide decides on

that the character doesnt know about either, only that theres something bad afoot

(To Endrite): http://badgame.net/index.php?topic=26550.msg9776787#msg9776787

johns: let me think about it

Bonfilia ex Verditius: evil Destiny Major, Story The Infernal realm has taken an interest in the character, but he does not know how or why. Perhaps one of his Powers is actually Infernal, or demons are plotting against him, or he is convinced that he is being stalked by something evil. He cannot discuss this openly for fear that he will be accused of infernalism, but must be always on his guard against the dark forces that he knows will come for him one day. The storyguide will use this Flaw to subtly work the Infernal realm into your character, leaving you unaware of the specifics. You might have one of the other Flaws in this chapter, or a combination of several Minor Flaws, or even a Flaw that changes periodically. The character could simply be Plagued by Demons or Susceptible to the Infernal. Through the course of the story you may eventually discover what his Flaw is, but until then you are only haunted with the knowledge that something about him is not right.

johns: yeah that seems fine

Endrite's Magus: Do Not Buy Bread Here.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: you have to crack a couple eggs to make a bread

johns: its leavened with the blood of christian children, that's how you know its good

Endrite's Magus: WOW a lot of this House Criamon fluff is dumb.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: yes

johns: lol

Boy R. (GM): it's thoroughly ridiculous

Endrite's Magus: Luckily I have an out!

Bonfilia ex Verditius: when I played Criamon I just went with the Gorgiastic virtue

which means you left the house as a heretic but can still use the enigma

Endrite's Magus: I can take the Guest of the House minor virtue and ignore almost everything.

1 Virtue point is a small price to pay.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: does guest of the house let you start with enigmatic wisdom?

Endrite's Magus: Yes.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: then go for it

Boy R. (GM): "may be created using the rules of any other house" implies, to me, that they don't

Endrite's Magus: Well, it says that characters may be created with the rules of any other house, but it doesn't specify that House Criamon is not another house from itself.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: just pick gorgiastic instead

Boy R. (GM): there's another option, which is to discard the criamon fluff and replace it with something to your liking

because it affects nothing at all about the setting

Endrite's Magus: That is something I have seriously considered.

johns: you could roll another house too

Endrite's Magus: Well I like the idea of being a medieval pythagorean.

johns: ex misc jerbiton and criamon are good fits for that

Bonfilia ex Verditius: bonisagus in a way too

Endrite's Magus: I think I'm just going to ignore the Mystery Cults book.

johns: haha

Endrite's Magus: The idea of a House being based on perfectionist Greek philosophy is good but all this other stuff is just laughable.

johns: i feel like criamon is some concept from many older editions ago that made sense then but they struggle to fit into the setting now

Boy R. (GM): the thing is they really never discussed their beliefs in detail, they were just Enigmatic and Philosophical

Endrite's Magus: That's why I feel free to jettison most of this oriental meditation stuff.

Boy R. (GM): oh btw to recap here is the houserules we're definitely going with, particularly the bits that pertain to characters

http://ars-badgame-ii.wikia.com/wiki/Houserules

johns: which reminds me that we need to include a copy of Marco Polo's Voyages in our library. Area Lore (Place you will never go to)

Bonfilia ex Verditius: the only thing you need to know about house criamon is that all the spirits of their dead get eaten by a magical monster in the cave of twisting shadows who mimics the spirits in a way to lure more of them there

Endrite's Magus: Thank you for changing the bizarrely complicated botch dice rules.

Why would you even MENTION the possibility of rolling a natural 0?

That just confuses things!

Boy R. (GM): botch dice are still one of least favourite mechanics but there's no simple replacement

Endrite's Magus: Actually the most important thing to know about the Criamon is The Carnal Wolf.

johns: I've just heard from cumthinker: he wants to be an Elementalist

Endrite's Magus: Ok.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: good luck to him

Endrite's Magus: So let's see, if I want to remake the city of Rome in my own image, I'm gonna need at least some political pull.

Terrum vis is also going to be useful.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: Fia was almost ready to become an insane powerhouse that could summon magma rain so elementalists certainly can become useful eventually

johns: magma rain

some stay dry others feel the pain

Endrite's Magus: Hmm.

So I'm going to want good Presences, Communication, and Intelligence for that.

I mean just Presence.

Hmm.

7 points.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: gentle gift is a good virtue if you want to deal with mundanes

Endrite's Magus: Yeah.

I'm still figuring out my Characteristics.

How does this look?

INT +2 3

​PER +0 0

​STA +1 1

Endrite's Magus: ​STR +0

​PRE +1 1

​DEX +1 1

​COM +1 1

​QWK +0 0

johns: if you don't need Dex for any of your abilities I'd suggest dumping it and investing the points into Sta

Endrite's Magus: So switch to DEX -1 and STA +2?

Darvin: Would you guys recommend against dumping DEX and QWK into -3?

Bonfilia ex Verditius: no thats what i always do

its pretty bad if you want to be a combatant though

Endrite's Magus: Maybe QWK -1 instead of DEX -1.

Darvin: Is the main downside always losing initiative?

johns: Yeah, also harder to do interrupt actions

Boy R. (GM): no, it's tanking your defense

johns: qik is defense?

Boy R. (GM): yes

you know that

Endrite's Magus: QWK is definitely the better abbreviation.

johns: I have to be perfectly honest: It's been 2.5 years and I still have to look up the combat formulae every time

Bonfilia ex Verditius: same

Boy R. (GM): well, that's why my perfect new combat rules will solve everything

Endrite's Magus: Load up Pendragon and have knights do it.

So how do you know which Characteristics go with which Ability?

Boy R. (GM): it varies case by case

Bonfilia ex Verditius: picking a major hermetic flaw is always difficult

they all suck

johns: im a big fan of chaotic magic which is just so poorly written that not even the editors can figure out what it was supposed to mean

Boy R. (GM): i mean athletics can be used with str or dex or qik depending what you're trying to do

johns: Twilight Prone seems like a good bet for a Verditius who works more with enchantments than spells

Endrite's Magus: Prinny did you see Twilight Prone and realize you had to play a Criamon?

Bonfilia ex Verditius: true, I'm just afraid my evil destiny will turn out to be something that causes my twilight episodes to be infernal twilight

Endrite's Magus: That's so "Verditus who works more enchantments than spells."

johns: vituperation builds character

Bonfilia ex Verditius: actually the twilight prone character I had was the scion of Charlemagne and God's Holy Warrior on Earth

johns: He Died For Mont Mercure's Sins

Bonfilia ex Verditius: he was ex misc, and twilight points gave him super powers

Boy R. (GM): that is strictly true

Bonfilia ex Verditius: alright going for twilight prone

Endrite's Magus: I mean it SEEMS good if you have The Enigma.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: the problem with twilight prone is that it WILL happen in the middle of a big battle

and put you out action

johns: going twilight in a big battle is good for you, not so good for your allies

Endrite's Magus: I think some kind of Restriction might be more thematically appropriate.

A Restriction or Necessary Condition feels very geometric.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: you could pair it with cyclical magic maybe

Endrite's Magus: I dunno about Cyclical Magic.

johns: cyclic magic is good for lab nerds, you do your magic work in one half the year and your reading in the other

Endrite's Magus: Since, of course, geometry is a perfect form and does not change.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: im not sure about this gentle gift virtue

it doesnt entirely mesh with how bonfilia has turned out

Endrite's Magus: Bread that screams and bleeds when you bite it.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: its sinfully good

Endrite's Magus: So should I dump DEX to -1 or QWK to -1 to afford STA +2?

johns: Necessary Condition: must trace a triangle in the air with both hands ?

Bonfilia ex Verditius: dump dex

Boy R. (GM): magi can get by without dex, anyone who gets attacked can benefit from quickness

necessary condition: all your magic circles have to have a triangle inside them

Endrite's Magus: Uh, shouldn't they anyway?

Isn't that where the magic happens?

Also that wouldn't apply to spells that don't use magic circles, so it wouldn't qualify.

Boy R. (GM): it doesn't but I like the idea nayway

So I'm thinking of being the gentle gift guy if nobody else goes for it

and maintaining at least two personae: a franciscan friar and a musician who plays the houses of the nobles

Endrite's Magus: I think I'm going to as well, but I'm a much stranger person.

Boy R. (GM): you only get one major hermetic virtue, you want to be sure it's going to benefit you

Endrite's Magus: Flawless Magic seems good, but any Driven Geomancer is going to have to interact with mundanes.

johns: idk

Endrite's Magus: I might go with Ex Miscellanae instead of Criamon so I can go whole hog with the Geomancy thing.

johns: that's what covenfolk are for most of the time

Endrite's Magus: I dunno, what house do you think I should go for?

johns: heck you could even do Merinita and use road magic

Endrite's Magus: Hmm I'm conflicted.

Ex Miscellanae seems like a good fit for a Geometry Cultist but I can't find a thematic Major Virtue.

johns: Major Magical Focus?

Endrite's Magus: Non-hermetic.

johns: ooh

Endrite's Magus: Greater Immunity to geometrically imperfect things is sort of interesting but it is possibly too broad and definitely would involve a ton of haggling.

Boy R. (GM): definitely needs to be more clearly defined

and it feels like it would work better the other way around

immunity to symmetrical objects

Endrite's Magus: Still, lots of haggling.

Like what if I fall on the ground?

Is that symmetrical?

Boy R. (GM): only if can prove it to your own satisfaction before you hit it

roll qik+artes liberales

Endrite's Magus: BUT, does the Geometry specialization help or hinder such a roll?

Boy R. (GM): if you can't save your life with geometry then what's even the point?

Endrite's Magus: Magister In Arbites might be appropriate since a lot of geometry is mundane learning.

But it seems more like a flaw, since it eats up two seasons.

Boy R. (GM): i'm not sure magi can hold down positions like that

Bonfilia ex Verditius: is it possible to start the game with inner mystery virtues

johns: oh i was planning to take magister assuming it was okay with gentle gift

and then

just not teach?

Boy R. (GM): isn't that built into the cost of the virtue?

like you get all these benefits, but you have to have a teaching job

johns: it's a major virtue

and it takes 8 years iirc

Boy R. (GM): lol, well

Endrite's Magus: No, it takes 8 years of study.

You have to teach for the rest of your life.

Boy R. (GM): btw endrite you might consider mercurian master

* mercurian magic

Endrite's Magus: Yeah, the ritual magic looks like it could be part of it.

Boy R. (GM): mundane learning is what rituals and shit depend on

Endrite's Magus: But again, that's a Hermetic Virtue.

I mean obviously if I'm going Ex Misc then the free Minor non-Hermetic virtue is going to be Hermetic Geometry, which confusingly is a Mystery Virtue.

johns: that's fine by me as long as you realize how underwhelming hermetic geometry is

Endrite's Magus: Well, the important part is the geometrical enlightenment, less so the new casting ranges.

Boy R. (GM): re. Bonfilia ex Verditius: is it possible to start the game with inner mystery virtues

I think it's not appropriate for characters just out of apprenticeship

but that's just me

Bonfilia ex Verditius: since i cant figure out another major virtue I may go with an infernal heirloom, a fork that shrinks people that you stab with it called the Vitellian Fork

Boy R. (GM): A&A clarifies that magister is compatible with magus and you don't need to support yourself in a covenant, so I guess it's fine not to teach but you lose your academic reputation very quickly

Endrite's Magus: Mercurian Magic looks like it hurts my ability to cast Rotes, though.

Unless Rotes are different than Spontaneous Magic for the purposes of the Spontaneous Magic penalty for Mercurian Mages.

Numerologists have a great interest

in numbers, and like to count things.

Numerology: Indeed, Numerologists have

The following spells do not require

Endrite's Magus: been encountered trying to interest other

magi in these spells.

lmao

Please stop lighting things on fire with magic and try this spell that counts grains of sand, instead.

johns: lol

that's very ex misc

Endrite's Magus: Yeah.

Lucky I rolled that one first.

johns: I thought BR wanted to adjust Mercurian Magic to make it better after suffering through it himself

it's pretty silly that what is supposed to be a major virtue has a nasty flaw baked into it too

Boy R. (GM): that's true, but i didn't want to harp on it

at minimum, I think you should do away with the restriction where bringing a non-mercurian into a wizard's communion means you lose all the vis you're saving on a ritual

Endrite's Magus: Well, there's a couple different routes I think I can take with this character.

Boy R. (GM): I also still think we should nerf flawless magic, and perhaps buff elementalism

but idk what the best route is to any of those

Darvin: I fail to see why I would take anything besides Flawless magic as my major virtue

Boy R. (GM): fully 50% of ars magica players agree

Endrite's Magus: A very esoteric mage who uses strange and precise spellcasting to achieve his goals or a more worldly mage who uses wealth and political power to provide the groundwork for his esoteric endeavor.

I dunno they're both interesting.

The idea of a political figure with an ineffable goal is interesting without having to be a psycho devil worshiper or another fairy.

But a learned man using pure knowledge to change the world is also a powerful concept.

johns: i sorta see Jerbiton working for that, if you are assuming geometry represents natural beauty, and you try to politically rearrange the city while sponsoring geometrically pleasing artists

but thats just my take

Boy R. (GM): it's very appropriate

Endrite's Magus: I like the original idea of geometry being a sort of divine communion.

Sort of like the Masons or Illuminati (same thing).

johns: you're the Hammerites from thief

Endrite's Magus: I've never played it.

Having a bizarre and far-reaching ambition also makes my character easier to play.

Since I can just draw a straight line between where I am and where I want to be and then follow it.

Boy R. (GM): god the magic creatures rules are a mess

Endrite's Magus: What kind of magical man are you guys making?

Boy R. (GM): if we're using mythic companions for standard companions is it reasonable to take the magus-equivalent power level for my animate statue?

johns: yes

Boy R. (GM): I'm making an automaton who is a creation of wizards of johns' dudes tradition

they're not normally sentient on any level, and I haven't decided what happened to this guy to make him so

johns: you could be a creation of the great virgil himself

accidentally forgotten during the sacking of rome and woken up a millenium later

Endrite's Magus: Could be ghost problems.

Boy R. (GM): i'd forgotten virgil was supposed to be a wizard himself but yeah, maybe

Bonfilia ex Verditius: so did we decide that abilities level as arts

johns: "a wizard?" try the GREATEST wizard, bonisagustards.

Boy R. (GM): yup, seems that way

Bonfilia ex Verditius: that is going to give me some pretty insane lab totals

Endrite's Magus: Johns what kind of wizard are you making?

johns: i am making a Virgilian Magic as described in the book "Rival Magic"

originally they were a coalition of court wizards trying to recreate the roman empire through Frederick II

then Mont-Mercure clowned on them a bunch

Boy R. (GM): the specifics are still up for a debate but I outlined ways to adapt all the important formulas in this post: http://badgame.net/index.php?topic=26550.msg9775433#msg9775433

Endrite's Magus: The Roman Empire never died they just changed from an Emperor to a Pope.

Boy R. (GM): your lab totals will be a bit lower than the default

although i realise now this requires more rulings to work with verditius magic

johns: yay

Endrite's Magus: So what's the post-it note version of a Virgilian?

And also what is he doing in a Hermetic covenant?

Bonfilia ex Verditius: it may appear that my lab totals will be lower, but chthonic magic+magical focus gives me x3 lowest form

johns: they have 3 powers: divination through the sortes virgilinalie, making autonomous enchantments called "animo," and rites that function like the hermetic watching ward

Endrite's Magus: I see.

johns: this guy's parens defected to the order of hermes when it became clear that the order/mont-mercure was going to kill every last augustan due to the risk of the parma leaking out

Bonfilia ex Verditius: I am going to create bread carrying the most insidious of enchantments imaginable.

Endrite's Magus: What about you, Boy Reporter?

Boy R. (GM): I was thinking of a jerbiton who maintains a network of informants and disguises but I haven't got real motivation yet

Endrite's Magus: Sounds like I should possibly go deeply mystical then, since there are so many talky guys around.

Boy R. (GM): also darvin's guy is sort of going for that angle

actually

would your obsessive geometer like a personable apprentice to handle his day to day business?

I've wanted to run an apprentice as a full pc for a while

Endrite's Magus: I guess.

Boy R. (GM): don't feel obliged

Endrite's Magus: It's a little weird because I don't know much about Europe, magic, or how to play this game.

So it wouldn't make much sense for me to have a player apprentice.

johns: not knowing much about Europe isn't a big holdup actually

since Magi are weird recluses with strange ideas of what's important

Boy R. (GM): we all get the setting details wrong all the time anyway

only because it's the real world and there's a lot of them

Endrite's Magus: Also I think that Dys' character being spider related sort of precludes the idea of a Gentle Gift, but what do I know?

johns: I think that's just a sigil

Boy R. (GM): true, my main concept is to make a magus that gets out in the world instead of holing up in his lab

Endrite's Magus: Hmm.

If Mercurian Magic is changed to not totally blow I'd take that.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: what does the outer mystery for verditius actually do

Boy R. (GM): this sort of thing is going to come up a lot

i think as a general rule, when an ability would add to a lab or casting total or initiation script or anything like that, halve your score and round down

it's close enough

Bonfilia ex Verditius: then why have abilities advance as arts

Boy R. (GM): mainly because I want to support the idea of rewriting the rules on a whim and rope kid has always agitated for the idea

did you take the survey? more people came out in favour of it than I was expecting

Bonfilia ex Verditius: i voted against it

Endrite's Magus: I don't remember what I voted because I am an uniformed voter, exercising my franchise frivolously.

johns: democracy fails us yet again

Endrite's Magus: Oh that reminds me, what is the organizational structure for the Covenant?

Boy R. (GM): well there was a vote on the concept and then a vote on the specific implementation, you probably missed the first

johns: it starts out as Autocracy. if you'd like to change that it's worth a story

Endrite's Magus: Who is the Autocrat?

Oh right the guy.

johns: Venator

Endrite's Magus: Verdun.

Oh.

Rihgt.

IRGHEt.

johns: Vinney

Bonfilia ex Verditius:  thinking of bloody verdicts

Endrite's Magus: When it says Compulsory Major Flaw that means you don't get points for it, right?

Boy R. (GM): for a version of mercurian magic that doesn't blow: you get half price on rituals in all circumstances, your ceremonial magic only takes one minute per magnitude by default and you can use ceremonial methods to boost your casting totals with formulaic spells, even without learning that one spell mastery

Endrite's Magus: Is that the one we're using or what?

Boy R. (GM): no, I'm spitballing here

I mean, does it seem reasonable?

Bonfilia ex Verditius: by the way are we changing puissant ability to give +3 instead of +2 since puissant art gives +3?

Boy R. (GM): yes

+50% on all contributions from virtues

Endrite's Magus: Hell if I know.

Boy R. (GM): well, if johns signs off on it feel free to take that version

johns salutes

Endrite's Magus: Could you put that on the wiki?

Bonfilia ex Verditius: man this abilities as arts fucks everything up

do abilities start as 1 now, granted by virtues, and what about native language

Endrite's Magus: AFK a sec.

Bonfilia ex Verditius: its like removing a load bearing drywall everything is crashing down

Boy R. (GM): yeah I guess they still start at one that was always basically a formality

Bonfilia ex Verditius: and native language? is ability level 5 still fluency?

Boy R. (GM): you start with 75 xp in your native language and can speak it fluently, congratulations

dys: All the sweeping houserules will be on the wiki, right?

Boy R. (GM): let's say you need to reach 10 in a language to be considered fluent. this is possibly the least significant knockon effect

yes, once they're all finalised

feel free to object to any of them

dys: Were longetivity rituals completely removed or just nerfed.

johns: nerfed, half effect

dys: I fell asleep sorry. I didn't have much to add and was very tired.

Boy R. (GM): falling asleep sounds like a good idea

i'm off for real

johns: l8r

dys: Oh. Rip.

Endrite's Magus: Welp, I've almost figured out what virtues I should think about.

See ya'll later.